Same problem on FR7, 7X, 8X! Crazy!

For the modern ones among us.
CPezMusic
Beginner
Beginner
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2016 1:42 am

Re: Same problem on FR7, 7X, 8X! Crazy!

Post by CPezMusic » Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:20 am

Just got back from another trip in DC so I'll try to answer all these points. Thanks so Much Guys!

It ended up being an IC board that was replaced for one person, and it was not cheap.
- Yes, replacing parts is Hard to do, even with me who knows many insiders at Roland, AND it's extremely expensive IF you can find the parts. Considering 2 of my accordions are broke, and it's now a problem I am finding on ALL Roland's, we NEED to find the Exact problem. Because I think it's something simple.

JimD
- Yes, he's the person that introduced me on here. I never knew about it until him! Thanks Jim!

If the Roland Guys cannot solve it, on their own product, well... a bit scary.
- You just wait until 7's, 7X's and 8X's and others start getting old and start having mroe and more issues, and think about how 90% of the people that have them have NO IDEA about anything associated with electronics (me included). It's going to be a Complete and Utter S*** Show. Whomever becomes the expert with fixing ANY problem on these will become a very Very rich man.

Once resolved, please don't forget to let us know what the issue was and how you addressed it. That way if someone here buys a used 7X or 8X, they'd have a direction to go if they experienced the same problem.
- That's why I want to get the word out to the world. It's something that the world Needs to know, as considering I have seen this issue across the board of accordions, more and more people will find it.

You really put that keyboard through hell and back, what if it is that?
- Actually no. When you consider really hard players like Tony Lovello and Dick Contino, I am a Baby on it. I rarely have to play it at full volume, and my playing speed which everyone wonders how I have, is based off Barely playing the keys / buttons.

The sticking note could occur when the synth never receives it's off note command.
- This is an interesting idea. The opposite concerning the signal it gets.

Didn't MIDI patch bays back in the day have "panic buttons" that would send an All Notes Off command across all 16 channels?
- Anyone else have comments on this?

Could the box be bounced around in shipping? Or too many sets you input?
- Noooo no, when I travel with an accordion, it is ALWAYS with me on the plane. And remember that this is something that has occurred on all various accordions. Concerning inputting too many things; you may be surprised to know that 90% of the things I play are on stock settings and sets. There are a few reasons why I do this, but there really is not any "Cory Pesaturo pile of special sets" I use. Very little in that. So all of you can play what I play mostly! It's Just Practice!

Matt Butcher
- Thanks Matt!! And Thanks to All of you who said kind things about my playing. As I always say, I'm just trying. Trying to be Eddie Monteiro on the left hand, Petar Ralchev on Balkan, Charles Magnante on Classical, Tommy Gumina on improvisation speed, etc.etc..

From the inspection of the 2 Rolands you brought and your explanation of using an aftermarket power supply, I felt you have subjected your "V" accordion models to excessive voltage and damaged the mother boards.
- I neglected to mention that Jim because you guys were only a very small part of the entire story that has now gone on for a year, and are just 2 of the now 8 close friend engineers who have looked at the issue. But to comment on the subjecting too much power issue with the aftermarket Joe Recchia charger device....

Concerning the External Power Supply from my Buddy Joe Recchia that I use on just 1 of the accordions with this problem.
- I have used his external power charger for years and have never had an issue, nor have I heard of an issue from anyone else that uses them, but MOST of all, remember that only ONE of the accordions I've had issues with, has used his aftermarket charger. Although all of these things could be a power issue, Joe's device is not the issue. Though we are dealing with 2 somewhat separate issues (The across the gamete of Roland's issue with notes electronically sticking, and how 2 of my accordions currently don't do anything with the bass buttons OR switches, though speakers work on left hand)

martin10
Beginner
Beginner
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2016 12:36 pm

Re: Same problem on FR7, 7X, 8X! Crazy!

Post by martin10 » Tue Oct 18, 2016 11:16 pm

I have a 3x and have not had this problem, but have taught MIDI and computer science for many years. Two thoughts )no idea of they are helpful).

First, you might try plugging the MIDI into software that captures the data. That should let you check if you are generating a Note Off command or not. If you are, then the sound synth is ignorng it (or not getting it). Very likely that Roland are not using note off commands but sending a second note on (same pitch) with a velocity of 0 (ie sending a "silent" note that overrides the playing sound). Good technical reason for doing this but not relevant here.

Second (and this is a very long shot, but ...). Many years ago I had a very early Mac computer. I thought I was going mad when it started typing by itself. Rushed into work (urgent project to complete), grabbed my offce machine, plugged it in, fine. A few minutes later it too started typng by tself!!!! I eventually discovered that I had borrowed an ioniser (advertised as perfect for environemnts with computers). Turned it off and the the typing simply slowed down and stopped. Turned it back on and the typing restarted. Is there ANY possibility that you have some sort of interference that could be doing something similar? I have just remembered that we had a similar experience in our electronics lab a few montsh ago - one of my staff was teaching about timing using a scope - as he walked towards the system it sloweed down! He had cycled in and was wearing lycra - we earthed him and it was fine!

Sorry of these are way of target.

acordiansam
Star
Star
Posts: 311
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2014 3:45 pm

Re: Same problem on FR7, 7X, 8X! Crazy!

Post by acordiansam » Wed Oct 19, 2016 3:39 pm

Sum people have different electrial charge than others. My wife must ware a ground strap b 4 using the home computer or else it will lock up. She doesn't even have to touch one sum times. If she is mad at a store when checking out verry often the store system will lock up. More than likely not relevant but?

CPezMusic
Beginner
Beginner
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2016 1:42 am

Re: Same problem on FR7, 7X, 8X! Crazy!

Post by CPezMusic » Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:18 am

Interesting story there. It Could be relevant! We don't know yet haha. Anyone else on ideas? I'm talking with the original engineers now about all this. Nothing yet.

User avatar
JerryPH
Should get out more!
Should get out more!
Posts: 1558
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:59 am
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada

Re: Same problem on FR7, 7X, 8X! Crazy!

Post by JerryPH » Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:14 am

I pretty much exhausted my input to your issue, Cory, however, I now also have a personal intrest in this issue because as of 2 weeks ago, I purchased an 8x. It was for all intents a brand new unit with less than a month's use by an older man who passed away a few weeks after having bought it. I was fortunate enough to have picked it up for a good price and in my short time with it, I have had zero issues, and trust me, I listen for stuck notes all the time. :)

I plan to use only the original power supply to recharge the batteries, and if I experience anything out of the ordinary, I will post it here.

Please keep us up to date with what happens, I would really appreciate it!
My musical memoires blog/website: http://www.AccordionMemories.com

Giovanni
Beginner
Beginner
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:54 am

Re: Same problem on FR7, 7X, 8X! Crazy!

Post by Giovanni » Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:11 pm

[/font

Hi Cory , if you are having a struggle getting this sorted out by the right techie guy in Roland and with your high standing in the accordion playing and performance world !! and you have done a lot of promotion for the digital accordions !!! what chance does the normal standard accordion player have of getting good service !!!and an answer to this problem .

Regarding Tony Lovell and Dick Contino style of playing ,until I attended the Las Vegas accordion convention , I had never seen any one perform in such a style and actually wondered how long their accordions could take that heavy style of playing !!!.
I have never seen Dick perform with anything other than an acoustic accordion ............as forTony like wise but I may be wrong on this one !!

Going back to you roland problem ...have you tried this roland user digital V accordion forum ????

Regards ..............Giovanni

ps is Steve Albini still working for Roland v accordions ????



]https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/rol ... dions/info

JIM D.
Should get out more!
Should get out more!
Posts: 4003
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:56 pm
Location: Chicopee, MA USA

Re: Same problem on FR7, 7X, 8X! Crazy!

Post by JIM D. » Thu Dec 08, 2016 2:06 pm

Yes, Steve is still an artist and clinician for Roland. Steve will be performing with the new 4x on 1/8/2017 at -- http://www.falcettimusic.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; -- For anyone wishing to attend - contact me in a PM
{} JIM :tup:
Owner & Operator "THE FISARMONICA SHOP" Chicopee, MA (USA)

User avatar
jimgansett
Improver
Improver
Posts: 89
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:46 pm
Location: Central Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Same problem on FR7, 7X, 8X! Crazy!

Post by jimgansett » Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:21 pm

Hi Cory,
This type of problem has been around for quite a long time and there have been conversations about it on the Roland V-Accordion Forum. IN MY CASE, sometimes the sticking note does happen with the bass chords. It has only happened, strangely, when I have been using the snare sounds on chord. It will stick a note until I shut off and put the accordion back on. Now, the interesting thing is that a) I only get it on sting sounds like guitar and mandolin on chords and b) whichever note is stuck playing it will happen on ALL chords containing the sticking note. I can easily get around it by switching to a different chord orchestration, say to piano. But it doesn't solve the problem.
Another interesting thing is that it doesn't seem to happen unless I use a lot of force, like a sharp snare hit! So, I thought maybe it was a bass board problem also, but judging from what you said, maybe it isn't, I don't have lots of bass boards to test it with.

So, if you ever find a reason, let me know! The other weird thing is that sometimes the problem would go away for a long time, and then for no apparent reason resurfaces.

Jim from the MAAA
If you can't take a joke you shouldn't have been born.... at least that's what my wife says.

kep
Novice
Novice
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:08 pm

Re: Same problem on FR7, 7X, 8X! Crazy!

Post by kep » Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:02 am

I'm not sure, but the sticky note issue could be caused by logical overload: there are too many events to process. It's easy to check: if you can repeat the sticky note situation, try to remove some of the orchestral voices, switch off effects, another word - simplify the sound and see if the sticky note disappeared.

Regards,
Kep

User avatar
BakersfieldAccordion
Novice
Novice
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:46 pm
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Contact:

Re: Same problem on FR7, 7X, 8X! Crazy!

Post by BakersfieldAccordion » Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:33 pm

Many thanks to Corey for bringing the “hanging note” issue to the forum.

I have experimented a great deal with the stuck note problem with the 7x. There have been some hypotheses that make sense, but based on my experiences I haven’t found any compelling explanation or solution. I am specifically referring to notes that are stuck in the bass or chord section, not the treble. My electronics knowledge is limited, but that hasn’t stopped me from experimenting. Here are some of my experiences:

Swapping parts from a “good” 7x:
Switched the entire bass assembly with one known to be fully functioning.
Result. Stuck notes continued.
[This bears on the idea that some buttons are over-used and the problem is with the buttons themselves.]

What I wanted to do is to systematically replace the most likely components. I started to do that last year, beginning with the bass assembly, but realized that, with my limited electronics experience, I could easily cause problems with both the good instrument and the flawed one. I thought Roland surely could do that and at least pinpoint a component that seems to be a cause, but it would be time-consuming and expensive.

Simplifying EVERYTHING. Hanging notes continued to occur regardless:
Factory reset.
Removing all expansions.
Playing ONLY factory accordion sets with no orchestra voicing.
Playing through headphones only, at reduced volume.
Going back to earlier system versions.
[This bears on the idea that the stuck notes are due to an overload of some sort, or that the issue is due to add-on programming. In addition, since only accordion sounds with bellows control were used, it wouldn’t seem to be related to touch sensitivity.]

Power Source:
Stuck notes have occurred with a newly charged battery, a nearly depleted battery, or when connected to the FBC-7 OR to the Recchia power supply.
I DID notice that the problem became intense just before my power switch malfunctioned became always “on.” I had the power supply assembly replaced and for a while the stuck note problem seemed to be much improved for a month or two. I’m afraid these are not systematic observations, so I wouldn’t make too much of them, because as many people have mentioned, the problem seems to come and go. I have no explanation for why a new power supply assembly seemed to temporarily eliminate the symptoms, but regardless, the symptoms returned after a month or so.

What turns off the hanging note(s):
The SAME exact physical button must be pressed again to release the stuck note. You cannot, for example, press a counterbass “C” if the C that stuck was in the fundamental row.

You cannot turn off the stuck note by going to a different set, by switching to orchestral basses, or as far as I can tell by any means other than re-pressing the same button or by turning off the instrument.

Intermittent Problem:
What others have found, as well as myself, is that the stuck notes can seemingly disappear for long periods of time—days, weeks, months, even years—for no known reason. The problem may or may not reappear, based on reports from a number of owners.

From what I know, many 7x instruments have seldom if ever experienced stuck notes, or if they do, so infrequently as to be inconsequential. What is it about the aging process that would contribute to the problem? If it’s just the frequency of playing, it may take many years for the average owner to approach the usage of someone like Corey. Even in my case, with lots of playing, only one of my instruments has experienced the problem. I don’t really think we have enough evidence to know for certain about the likelihood of it happening with all 7x instruments or all v-accordions, but it remains a plausible prospect in my mind.

The 7x has been an incredibly sturdy workhorse for me. In many hundreds of gigs it has not once failed me on the job—even when using the one with the issue. This is easily the most perplexing issue I have ever faced with the v-accordions, so if anyone discovers a solution I would happily join Corey in providing a reward.

Richard

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest