Effective Effects

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jozz
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Effective Effects

Post by jozz » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:06 pm

I'm curious if people here put something on their own output?

The most common: a bit of delay/reverb along with EQ you might get from the house are pretty self-explanatory. Any effect you found works really well?

I occasionally use an octaver (ehx nano pog) to get a bass boost. I've fooled around with others but most of the time you get garbage because the tracking doesn't follow everything. I found the nano (or micro) pog are spot on.

Care to share :?:

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Re: Effective Effects

Post by Keymn » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:09 pm

jozz wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:06 pm
I'm curious if people here put something on their own output?

The most common: a bit of delay/reverb along with EQ you might get from the house are pretty self-explanatory. Any effect you found works really well?

I occasionally use an octaver (ehx nano pog) to get a bass boost. I've fooled around with others but most of the time you get garbage because the tracking doesn't follow everything. I found the nano (or micro) pog are spot on.

Care to share :?:
I would look at the tc-helicon series. Mostly vocal harmonizor but effects seem warm to me. I have that built in on my Korg PA3x arranger.

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Re: Effective Effects

Post by debra » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:34 pm

jozz wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:06 pm
I'm curious if people here put something on their own output?

The most common: a bit of delay/reverb along with EQ you might get from the house are pretty self-explanatory. Any effect you found works really well?
...
While performing I add a bit of reverb unless it is in a church or other venue with a lot of reverb/echo already.
I also use a narrow band filter tuned to whichever low frequency the bass box tends to give feedback (happens more often than not that one note causes more feedback than any other).
And finally: I set my Bose Tonematch engine to "accordion" when amplifying accordion. Not exactly sure what it does (except boost high frequencies) but from a distance it makes an amplified accordion sound like real (but loud) accordion, unlike most other attempts of amplifying an accordion and making it sound natural.
Paul De Bra (not Debra...)
http://www.de-bra.nl

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Re: Effective Effects

Post by jozz » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:59 am

Keymn wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:09 pm
I would look at the tc-helicon series. Mostly vocal harmonizor but effects seem warm to me. I have that built in on my Korg PA3x arranger.
the vocal harmonizer sounds good indeed...now if only I could sing :)

any particular effects you were thinking of?

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Re: Effective Effects

Post by jozz » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:08 am

debra wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:34 pm
And finally: I set my Bose Tonematch engine to "accordion" when amplifying accordion. Not exactly sure what it does (except boost high frequencies) but from a distance it makes an amplified accordion sound like real (but loud) accordion, unlike most other attempts of amplifying an accordion and making it sound natural.
Do you mean to say your pickups do not get its whole spectrum? And the Bosch makes up for that?

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Re: Effective Effects

Post by debra » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:17 am

jozz wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:08 am
debra wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:34 pm
And finally: I set my Bose Tonematch engine to "accordion" when amplifying accordion. Not exactly sure what it does (except boost high frequencies) but from a distance it makes an amplified accordion sound like real (but loud) accordion, unlike most other attempts of amplifying an accordion and making it sound natural.
Do you mean to say your pickups do not get its whole spectrum? And the Bosch makes up for that?
My pickups do get its whole spectrum. (They are pretty good.) But at least one thing the Tonematch engine's "accordion" setting does is compensate for how the sound travels through the air. When you listen to what comes out of the speaker from a few feet it sounds too sharp and unnatural, but when you listen to it from 20 to 50 feet it sounds very natural. So the spectrum is adapted so that when the audience is at a distance it sounds like what the instrument really sounds when you are closer by. Works wonders. But it is a "black box" so we do not really know what else it does inside. It has settings for many different instruments, and also for many different (vocal) microphones.
Paul De Bra (not Debra...)
http://www.de-bra.nl

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Re: Effective Effects

Post by jozz » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:05 am

debra wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:17 am
My pickups do get its whole spectrum. (They are pretty good.) But at least one thing the Tonematch engine's "accordion" setting does is compensate for how the sound travels through the air. When you listen to what comes out of the speaker from a few feet it sounds too sharp and unnatural, but when you listen to it from 20 to 50 feet it sounds very natural.
Interesting, I'd say a fair deal of that comes from speaker quality and placement. So I take it you supply your own sound/PA from beginning to end? Do they need to be matching speakers with this Tonematch system?

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Re: Effective Effects

Post by Keymn » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:32 am

jozz wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:59 am
Keymn wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:09 pm
I would look at the tc-helicon series. Mostly vocal harmonizor but effects seem warm to me. I have that built in on my Korg PA3x arranger.
the vocal harmonizer sounds good indeed...now if only I could sing :)

any particular effects you were thinking of?
Do you play VAccordion? In the 60s and 70s not a concern with analog effects. Now with digital effects, more tweaking into looking for that warm sound. I am satisfied with my Korg and VAccordion effects. Use a Yamaha mixer with effects built in. Along with powered speakers.
Believe it or not, I think Cakewalk Sonar recording software has some nice software plugin effects. As in this song I recorded years ago. Notice the guitar fill at the :55 mark. All done on pc. Although, not practical in a live setting, but I feel a warm sound. Many iPhone and iPad effects apps out there too. Inexpensive with a direct plug in. Something to try!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/oa1dz19hs7lau ... r.mp3?dl=0

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Re: Effective Effects

Post by jozz » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:25 pm

Keymn wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:32 am
Do you play VAccordion? In the 60s and 70s not a concern with analog effects. Now with digital effects, more tweaking into looking for that warm sound. I am satisfied with my Korg and VAccordion effects. Use a Yamaha mixer with effects built in. Along with powered speakers.
Believe it or not, I think Cakewalk Sonar recording software has some nice software plugin effects. As in this song I recorded years ago. Notice the guitar fill at the :55 mark. All done on pc. Although, not practical in a live setting, but I feel a warm sound. Many iPhone and iPad effects apps out there too. Inexpensive with a direct plug in. Something to try!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/oa1dz19hs7lau ... r.mp3?dl=0
Nice voice! :tup: I don't play the v-accordion i guess all those have everything built-in.

I am currently interested in how people tweak there sound a bit in getting the best sound of their acoustic accordions to the audience instead of simply leaving it in the hands of the sound guys.

I share your thoughts on software plugins, I find it hard to match a live hardware effect to an almost perfect studio effect. Either crazy expensive or not doing the job well. Hence this thread.

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Re: Effective Effects

Post by PolishMoonPolkaTrio » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:09 pm

I use the ParaEq by empress and really like it.
https://empresseffects.com/collections/ ... cts/paraeq
For an EQ pedal, it does fall into the 'crazy expensive' category. It was a tough decision to pay that much for a pedal, but I was never happy with any other eq that I'd tried and this allows you to really tailor the sound. It can also work as a narrow band filter as Paul De Bra uses. To me, the eq is way more important than any other effect on an acoustic accordion.

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Re: Effective Effects

Post by JerryPH » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:27 am

Well, two trains of thought are starting to come out
1. Getting good accordion sound
2. Effects that modify the sound beyond what it spunds like in pure acoustic mode

Part 1. Capturing good acoustic accordion sound starts out with the microphones. Basically your budget decides the kind of system you choose and it can start at $1 and easily go way above $10,000.00. Thankfully there is a kind of point where adding big money gives small gains, I found that to be around the $2000US mark. I am not saying that a $250 mike cannot sound good, but I am saying that your ears need to be pretty sharp to hear the differences between a $2000 setup and the $10,000.00 setup.

This is a huge section open to a LOT of info, lots of opinions and LOTS of people with different needs. Each will result in a very different setup.

Part 2. This section can also be split in to two areas:
A. Effects that can be added in the chaiin for live gigging
B. Effects that can be added to a track already recorded.

A. Live effects are mostly going to depend on the sound you want to generate, but more importantly, the location you are playing. A huge church, vs an open football park vs a (small, medium and/or large) club environment vs your bedrroom or livingroom are all going to demand VASTLY different effects and settings to get you the aound that you want.

For me, I will say that the environments outsiide the recording studio depend on the location, but for the most part equalization and minor amounts of reverb are what I like. Inside the recording studio, I have come to use 5 main sound modifiers to get the sound that I want:

- reverb (not echo!)
- a parametric 16 or more band equalizer
- a compressor
- a limiter
- and only when needed, a noise remover.

The brand/kinds are not all that relevant, they often all do exactly the same.

I discuss the basics of how to get your accordion recorded as well as you can using various techniques in a video I made a little while ago. Check out my blog site if you are interested. :)
My musical memoires blog/website: http://www.AccordionMemories.com

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Re: Effective Effects

Post by jozz » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:34 am

That is some good info so far, thank you all :!:

And Jerry, that is a nice tutorial, I take you mean Recording the accordion Part 3 :?:

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Re: Effective Effects

Post by JerryPH » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:08 am

Yes that is the one I was thinking of. Sorry I should have pasted the link here. :)
http://www.accordionmemories.com/recording3/
My musical memoires blog/website: http://www.AccordionMemories.com

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Re: Effective Effects

Post by debra » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:41 pm

jozz wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:05 am
...
Interesting, I'd say a fair deal of that comes from speaker quality and placement. So I take it you supply your own sound/PA from beginning to end? Do they need to be matching speakers with this Tonematch system?
In principle you don't need matching speakers. I use the Bose L1 model 2 so those are "matching speakers" but there is a clear difference in sound between the "accordion" setting and the neutral (bypass) setting. We tested this in a (medium size) concert hall and the accordion setting definitely sounded better in the hall than the neutral setting.
For the bass accordion I do use the neutral setting though.
Paul De Bra (not Debra...)
http://www.de-bra.nl

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Re: Effective Effects

Post by jozz » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:48 pm

debra wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:41 pm
In principle you don't need matching speakers. I use the Bose L1 model 2 so those are "matching speakers" but there is a clear difference in sound between the "accordion" setting and the neutral (bypass) setting. We tested this in a (medium size) concert hall and the accordion setting definitely sounded better in the hall than the neutral setting.
For the bass accordion I do use the neutral setting though.
Ok, would be nice to know what that preset actually does.

But the Bose L1 alone seem very good at its job projecting a large area:



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Re: Effective Effects

Post by JerryPH » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:20 am

I like Bose speakers, always have, however, they are not without drawbacks, especially the L1's.

1. Ridiculously expensive
2. Unless you add a mixer or Tonematch engine, and add a 2nd L1, its only a mono image.
3. With an integrated unit, if the speakers blow, your evening is done, repairs are expensive. If the amp blows, your evening is done, and again repairs are expensive.

Now one might be just fine and all you need, but I am spoiled in that I own a pair of Bose 802-E and a good mixer and amp, and I love having the ability to create a stereo image on stage when performing and in my mixes, it adds a lot to the quality of the sound and the musical experience to the listeners. Of course each setup has it's negatives and for a stereo setup, that becomes needing to carry more items, but you save a lot of money and add more flexibility, can easily expand the setup and repairs are much cheaper.

My 2 cents. :)
My musical memoires blog/website: http://www.AccordionMemories.com

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Re: Effective Effects

Post by debra » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:19 am

JerryPH wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:20 am
I like Bose speakers, always have, however, they are not without drawbacks, especially the L1's.

1. Ridiculously expensive
2. Unless you add a mixer or Tonematch engine, and add a 2nd L1, its only a mono image.
3. With an integrated unit, if the speakers blow, your evening is done, repairs are expensive. If the amp blows, your evening is done, and again repairs are expensive.
...
I fully agree with all of these...
1. The L1 is really powerful, it has more umph than I ever need. For solo work in many venues (not open air) the smaller version (which has tonematch built in) may be enough but even that is around $1.000 so still expensive.
2. The Tonematch engine is mono. So you need 2 of everything: the L1 and the Tonematch to get stereo. This system is really intended for bands where each player has their own L1 and Tonematch... extremely expensive setup.
3. Repairs are indeed expensive. My Tonematch developed static noise on all but one of the mic inputs. Repair was about half the price of a new one (and I'm pretty sure they just replaced everything inside). I'm an amateur, not a professional. If the whole thing goes bust, "the evening is done" indeed. I try to have backups, like a spare microphone, spare cables, spare wireless system, and I typically bring some basic repair kit (including soldering iron) but for the Bose that's all going to be futile when it breaks. With my previous band we had two L1's and two Tonematch engines and could keep going but for now I don't have that luxury.
Paul De Bra (not Debra...)
http://www.de-bra.nl

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Re: Effective Effects

Post by jozz » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:56 am

A question, since this is mainly about the effects and less about amplification:

- would the Tonematch be of much use if it's running into your average amp/PA combo?

I have only one mono output and let's say the amp/PA combo together is no more then 600-800 euro.

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Re: Effective Effects

Post by JerryPH » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:54 am

jozz wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:56 am
- would the Tonematch be of much use if it's running into your average amp/PA combo?
Can it be used? Sure, but the end results would not come anywhere near as "proper" sounding as when using Bose speakers, for the reason that all the settings are optimized for the very tight and specific tolerances and characteristics of the Bose speakers themselves. On my 802-E for example, it also comes with an equalizer, and I know exactly what this does, because I have tried the Bose speakers without the EQ and I have seen charts of what Bose does (it's ridiculous what they do in the EQ department to make them sound so good!).

Here is what that tone curve looks like for the 802-E equalizer. Reference the blue line:

Image

Suffice to say that small speakers need plenty of help to sound good no matter how good, and that is 50% or more of the Bose "secret" to getting good sound. That hints at an important way to set up your system, no matter what it is... for good sound, no matter where, you first need to consider what kind of speakers the sound is coming out of before applying some random EQ to it. For example, laptop speakers vs high end home home speakers vs headphones vs car speakers. They are all going to make the music sound vastly different, so when I apply my effects (pretty much any effect), I tend to add 1-2 db more because there are way more of my listeners hearing my music on laptop, headphones or low end speakers than high-end speakers and it then sounds better for the majority of the people.

In short, the effects you hear will almost certainly sound different for you on your sysem that you are mastering on, than what your listeners hear.

You would actually be much better off using the tone controls on your mixer or using a cheap audio EQ for your AMP/PA combo.
My musical memoires blog/website: http://www.AccordionMemories.com

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Re: Effective Effects

Post by WaldoW » Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:35 am

While in the privacy of my home, I sometimes use a Bugera V-22 tube amp fed by a Vox Wah-Wah, an Ernie Ball volume pedal, a Boss reverb/echo and an old Morley optical phase shifter. The biggest problem is getting the tweaked signal to dominate the acoustic sound. Some day, I'm going to experiment with muting the treble side grille somehow in order to reduce the acoustic signature and bring out the effects more purely. I would also like to up-grade my mic from an old "silver dollar" style to mini condensor type. While my skill level does not support their use yet, I have created some interesting sounds that have potential. [Purists, please forgive me, It's how I was brought up].
Long live Rock & Roll!

Press on....
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