Same problem on FR7, 7X, 8X! Crazy!

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CPezMusic
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Same problem on FR7, 7X, 8X! Crazy!

Post by CPezMusic » Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:35 pm

Hi Guys!

Cory Pesaturo here, first time on here. I have encountered a problem on my Famous Flamed 7X that I modified, and have now seen Very similar issues with my old FR7, 2 other 7X's, and an 8X in the months of using other people's accordions. Totally Crazy. So here's the story, as I'm searching like a Mad Man to find out WHAT in the World is going on. Plus considering there's almost No one in the world that knows all in's and out's of these accordions, it's finding a needle in a heystack.

Around 1 year ago, at a MAJOR major gig playing for RedBull at a Formula 1 Race, my left hand basses (a mix of both the single notes and chords) began randomly sticking. Electronically sticking, not physically. I have seen on many Roland's in the past where you hit a note on the left hand, and it keeps playing UNTIL you hit the same note again. That you can mask while playing / improvising. But this was a situation where the note keeps paying until you shut the accordion off. Which is unmistakable when playing in Public. So I thought at first of course, it was just the left hand bass. I quickly went to my last remaining Roland contact and got another bass section (Not the whole left hand, just the bass board itself of course). The accordion had Zero problems for 6 months. Thought I fixed it.
Then, all of a sudden, it starts doing it again, at Another High end concert those 6 months later. I now figured it had to do with the humidity, as the accordion Always seemed to be doing this when it was raining or near water. But that didn't seem right. So I figured it was my bass panel pushing against some wires on the left hand. So I took the panel off to play a concert, and it worked. THought I had the problem somewhat figured. I didn't. Next someone said to change the wire that runs from the right to the left hand seeing as it moves a lot and could be damaged. I switched it from my Black 7X to my Flamed 7X. It worked for a week again, thought I fixed it. But no. So odd that everytime I did something totally random, it would work for a while.
When the accordion started doing this again after the internal wire change, THIS time.... it was a bigger issue. The right hand stuck as well. So instead of turning it off and on again to re-test, I hit "Set" to change sets and see if it would keep doing it. Normally it would so I was just doing the same test I normally would. The right hand stopped sticking and played normally, but the left hand, didn't work. Nothing. Turned the accordion off and on, and the left hand still didn't work. It's like I Shorted / Blew something when I clicked Set Over while the left hand was sticking.
I took the accordion to the best engineers I knew, computer / circuit board guys. We quickly figured out that the left hand was totally fine, also meaning the Bass board I bought was not necasarry, as my "old" bass board was fine. The problem.... existed somewhere in the Main circuit boards on the right hand. Now - While with these guys, and checking continuity on my fully working Black 7X to see the diffreences between that one and my now half-broken Flamed &X, all with a Voltmeter, something went wrong, and the Black one now had the SAME exact problem as the Flamed one. The Left Hand Switches and Bass notes didn't work, but the Speaker did (which makes sense because it's on a different wire. Crazy Right!?!? I only presume the problem of the left hand notes and switches not working is Fully associated with it not working at all, but now the black one we somehow busted while working on it, but same problem in the end.
Now Cory Pesaturo has No 7X's to play haha, and I HATE the 8X for a Multitude of reasons. So I borrowed a friends 8X for a Huge Concert I had with an orchestra, and would you believe it - THE BASSES STUCK!! Randomly, but it didn't persist. Kind of a 2nd level bad, but not 3rd. 1st level is where you can just hit the notes that are sticking and they'll stop then. Here's an example of that performance. Check out 5:09-5:11 in this video, and you will hear what it was doing Randomly all day. Note this was a NEW 8X!! - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLEMUyEh2NE
THEN, because I couldn't borrow this guys accordion every other day, I pulled out my old FR7 to do some gigs while looking for a 7X to use for the time being. After playing the 7X for 2 weeks, BAM I one time just for 1 second, caught a bass chord I played sticking. Just a second, but it did it. So Now - I've seen sticking problems on the 7, 7X and 8X!! But it gets better. Roxy's Music, Rose specifically, the nicest person in the accordion world I think, gave me a deal of which I will not disclose, but basically Giving me a 7X for Free until I fix mine. She really is the Sweetest. So I just went out to LA for a week, and did tons of gigs, and came back to a concert last night here. In the 10 days I've used this, the Right hand had the First level stickedge that I mentioned, where twice the right hand randomly stuck until I hit the note that was sticking again. And this is a Barely used 7X. So now, 3 7X's, a 7, and an 8X... ALL WITH THIS Sticking Problem.

Does anyone... ANYONE... have Any Idea what this could be, so that we can Inform Roland, and also I can figure out WHAT I need to fix on my 2 Completely broken 7X's. I will buy whoever figures this out Multiple 5 Star Dinner Meals and a Free Concert haha. Seriously though! I know many of the engineers in Italy that Created this, and even they with the language barrier can't quite figure it out.

Thanks Guys!

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Re: Same problem on FR7, 7X, 8X! Crazy!

Post by CPezMusic » Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:36 pm

I am 100% confident it is something on one of the mother boards, but I have looked with multiple engineers trying to see if it's the Fuse's on the Power Boards as Spook at Roland said, but it seems not to be that. It could be a voltage thing, varying voltage as Jim D. on here says. Don't know. Another erson said the only thing that is similar in all these issues is the Timer on the boards that controls how long a note goes, some "555 Timer" thing.

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Re: Same problem on FR7, 7X, 8X! Crazy!

Post by JerryPH » Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:36 am

Hey Cory, nice to see you here... welcome.

Well I don't own a Roland V, but I am a member of the Roland Yahoo group for the 8X, and there are at least 1 or more people there with the same issue. Not surprising that you are not alone. If I recall correctly, it ended up being an IC board that was replaced for one person, and it was not cheap.

JimD, a guy that I would put in the same class that you hold Rose at, is a member here, and has worked on Roland V-Accordions in the past. He just might have an insight that others don't, start a conversation with him first (I see you started something, but sometimes, it takes a couple back and forths to hit the solution).

What kind of makes my eyes go wide isthat the Roland engineers said that they did not know what the issue was. If they cannot solve it, on their own product, well... a bit scarey.

Once resolved, please don't forget to let us know what the issue was and how you addressed it. That way if someone here buys a used 7X or 8X, they'd have a direction to go if they experienced the same problem. If it is a varying voltage thing, look for weak capacitors... but the only way to check those is to replace them. Generally caps last for a LONG time, but lower quality ones can fail in relatively short times. I suppose that this is why this one guy managed to get it resolved, they just changed the entire board?

Unless someone has some intimate internal knowledge of the 7X and 8X, this is one of those things that is extremely difficult to diagnose. :shock:

Thanks... and again, welcome to the forum! :ch

EDIT: You know I was thinking, and though I might be way off, Cory, you really put that keyboard through hell and back (lol). Could it be something right at the key switches or along the wiring between the keys and the main "motherboard"? I say this because new ones don't do it until after a while, and used ones that are not used that hard, end up showing this trait not long after some vigorous use. I'm totally speculating here, of course.
My musical memoires blog/website: http://www.AccordionMemories.com

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Re: Same problem on FR7, 7X, 8X! Crazy!

Post by Glenn » Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:50 am

Hi Cory, welcome to the forum (even if in such uncomfortable circumstances ).
I have had my 8x for about a year now and play it for on average 1 hour per day. I do not have a sticking note problem. I am however a rather gentle player as I have a psychological problem and believe beautiful machines have a soul and hence I am very respectful :)

But seriously, I have had the occasional missed note in the bass (the opposite problem ) which happens when I layer many sounds and play long, sustained patches.

In my years of experience with synthesisers, the sticking note occurs when the synth never receives it's off note command. With a decaying sound (Eg. Piano) this doesn't matter so much but an accordion sound is a different matter. What I am trying to say is that it could be a physical keyboard issue or even a software issue. In software, of there is a collision of commands (notes) they have to be prioritised and executed. If this goes wrong at times of stress on the software a hung note could result. It is however a bit odd that playing the note again does not fix it. This sounds defiantly like a software issue to me.
1) Ballone Burini 46C (4+5) cassotto (LMMH) 3/3 PA; 2) Accordiola Piano V (5+5) cassotto (LMMMH) 3/3 PA;
3) Roland FR8X; 4) Hohner Vox 4k (LMMH) 3/3 CBA

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Re: Same problem on FR7, 7X, 8X! Crazy!

Post by JeffJetton » Thu Oct 13, 2016 4:30 pm

Glenn wrote:In my years of experience with synthesisers, the sticking note occurs when the synth never receives it's off note command.
That was my first thought too. Classic sign of the sound board not getting the Note Off command, although I have no idea what that would be in this case (hardware or software).

Didn't MIDI patch bays back in the day have "panic buttons" that would send an All Notes Off command across all 16 channels? Maybe they still do. It's been a long time since I used a rack of modules...

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Re: Same problem on FR7, 7X, 8X! Crazy!

Post by acordiansam » Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:23 pm

Just a couple thoughts sorry no fixes. It seems you travel a lot.

Could the box be bounced around in shipping?

Also you more than likely have you're own sound sets that you load in each box you use. Maybe sum thing in the set program that transfers from box to box that makes this happen?

I hope you find out before my 3x does it.

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Re: Same problem on FR7, 7X, 8X! Crazy!

Post by Matt Butcher » Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:33 pm

[I can't help with the query, I just wanted to say how much I enjoy your music]

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Re: Same problem on FR7, 7X, 8X! Crazy!

Post by JIM D. » Thu Oct 13, 2016 9:21 pm

Hi Cory: And welcome to the Forum.
I see you have neglected to mention that we have met at the Falcetti workshop last month and I found your dilemma requires parts replacement.
From the inspection of the 2 Rolands you brought and your explanation of using an aftermarket power supply, I felt you have subjected your "V" accordion models to excessive voltage and damaged the mother boards.
Now we only spent 3 hours on the 2 units you brought and without the aftermarket power supply you have used, I can only surmise that the problems you now have (with 3 unts) are the result of an aftermarket product that provided your units to excessive voltage.
Owner & Operator "THE FISARMONICA SHOP" Chicopee, MA (USA)

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Re: Same problem on FR7, 7X, 8X! Crazy!

Post by Thomas N » Thu Oct 13, 2016 11:33 pm

I'm a professional accordionist. I have had my FR-8X for two years now and play probably an average of 2-3 hours a day. Most gigs are local. I have never shipped my accordion nor flown with it.

I have a similar playing style where I play with power and do not baby the instrument. The bellows really get a workout.

I've never had a single note stick on either the treble or bass sides in literally thousands of hours of playing.

Jim D's post has really helped me understand that there is some external influence involved here.
Current Accordions:

2003 Excelsior 960 Custom Magnante 5/5 - Hand Made Reeds
Excelsior 930 Van Damme Jazz Accordion - Hand Made Reeds
Roland FR-8X Digital Accordion - No Reeds

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Re: Same problem on FR7, 7X, 8X! Crazy!

Post by JerryPH » Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:39 am

Interesting. Of course it is important to use the power supply that came originally in most cases, but let's (hypothetically), assume that the original power supply died, and looking at the specs, one found a power supply that was the same input and output voltage with the same amperage rating, would this be enough to cause this issue?

Cory, is the power supply that you used the same one in all cases or in any of the Roland V's that have displayed this issue, have one or more never even once been attached to anything but the original Roland power supplies that came with the accordions?
My musical memoires blog/website: http://www.AccordionMemories.com

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