Good Gigs, Bad Gigs

Know of a good gig? Want to promote your club meetings? Let the rest of us know here.
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jozz
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Re: Good Gigs, Bad Gigs

Post by jozz » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:01 am

nice one

how have you arranged Minelli's Cabaret?

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Re: Good Gigs, Bad Gigs

Post by lightninboy » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:29 pm

Keymn wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:04 pm
I did a gig this afternoon at a senior home. Thought I should play it slow and sleepy time. But went ahead with my plan and played this attached list. Kept the room awake!
You do a lot of songs. But I consider using a Roland to be cheating...

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Re: Good Gigs, Bad Gigs

Post by Geronimo » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:02 pm

lightninboy wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:29 pm
Keymn wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:04 pm
I did a gig this afternoon at a senior home. Thought I should play it slow and sleepy time. But went ahead with my plan and played this attached list. Kept the room awake!
You do a lot of songs. But I consider using a Roland to be cheating...
Funny: on a Roland, you are still responsible for starting and ending and controlling every note. Once you start using an arranger (which Keymn does I think), that's no longer the case. And unless you programmed every arranger pattern, it also brings notes from other players. Still, you have a lot more leeway to work in a musical direction you want at a whim then when employing "song files", either as Midi or even as audio recording (basically playback). Or when playing in a combo.

At any rate: "serious" musicians consider using a Stradella bass cheating.

Is using an organ cheating? Is it cheating when the bellows are operated by an air pump rather than on-duty members of the congregation? How about a Hammond organ? Is a Leslie speaker cheating? What if it is an electronic Leslie effect? What if the Hammond organ has been digitized? Is playing a digital piano cheating? How about a Fender Rhodes?

Is an electric guitar a cheat?

In the end, I think the question more or less how much what you produce is an individual product reflecting your own work and musicality.

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Re: Good Gigs, Bad Gigs

Post by JerryPH » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:09 pm

lightninboy wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:29 pm
...I consider using a Roland to be cheating...
Uh-oh, someone kinda put their foot in their mouth... lol (I am kidding about the foot thing, but not about my response to this comment ;) )

Actually, as someone that does Stradella, Free Bass *and* Roland V-Accordion, let me say that playing a V-accordion takes skills that simply do NOT exist on any acoustic accordion. On top of demanding every skill that an acoustic accordion does, it demands a seriously increased technical understanding of what you are doing. It takes an open mind and imagination to create arrangements (good or bad) that no acoustic accordion on earth can reproduce. It takes and understanding of how things intertwine and how to mix all those sounds properly. On an accordion, you have two things to worry about, the left and right hands. On the V-accordion, you have at least 2 instruments PER HAND to worry about and often that also involves foot pedal controls. I am not even going to get in to the external arranger things that add so much to the digital accordion experience.

Of the 3, the Roland V-accordion takes the greatest level of skill and knowledge to set up and use properly. It also offers about ten-thousand times more opportunities to do things no accordion does... but in the wrong hands, it also offers about ten-thousand times more opportunity to screw up too... lol ;)
Some may say that a digital accordion is no more cheating than bringing a gun to a knife fight. :lol:
My musical memoires blog/website: http://www.AccordionMemories.com

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Re: Good Gigs, Bad Gigs

Post by Geronimo » Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:43 am

JerryPH wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:09 pm
lightninboy wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:29 pm
...I consider using a Roland to be cheating...
Uh-oh, someone kinda put their foot in their mouth... lol (I am kidding about the foot thing, but not about my response to this comment ;) )

Actually, as someone that does Stradella, Free Bass *and* Roland V-Accordion, let me say that playing a V-accordion takes skills that simply do NOT exist on any acoustic accordion.
Well, cheating at cards also requires skills not necessary when playing honestly.

What is the question is _who_ gets cheated here. The guys thinking accordions would be more affordable if produced in greater numbers? The market is awash with used instruments, and the electronic instruments make this more rather than less so.

I use a Roland for silent practice. For a whole lot of things, I still use my acoustic instrument because at least the first-generation Roland I have doesn't cut it for some things. For example, I need to be able to work with 3 semi-independent expressive voices which requires throttling air via button depression depth, and the "velocity" model Rolands, like most keyboards intended for piano sounds, employ just isn't good enough for that. For another, I often balance out voices by making use of the different responses of different reeds/pitches to different pressure. The Roland does not differentiate well enough for this to work. And so on.

Of course, most of the subtle problems I grapple with in that manner just aren't there when using orchestral sounds: those stand out much better than one accordion sound from another, and they are prearticulated, too. But I would not really call it cheating, like I don't call running without lead vest cheating. In the case of my accordion, I actually like that lead vest.

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Re: Good Gigs, Bad Gigs

Post by Keymn » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:35 am

jozz wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:01 am
nice one

how have you arranged Minelli's Cabaret?
Using the Korg Pa3X arranger Style Hollywood 1, voice processor doubling and harmony at the end. Note: in this demo, I am not using the accordion, just the keyboard sounds. I just quick recorded this as my style. Not sure of Liza’s style.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ondk1xqtoytn5 ... t.MP3?dl=0
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Re: Good Gigs, Bad Gigs

Post by jozz » Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:25 am

We took some inspiration from your list, but I am not sure how we will put down that hollywood vibe without an arranger and only two people. So my instinct was to go piano + banjo like. Is the clarinet (the first solo instrument you hear at 0:06 and througout) part the arranger or you?

(i have no clue how arrangers work)

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Re: Good Gigs, Bad Gigs

Post by Keymn » Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:48 am

jozz wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:25 am
We took some inspiration from your list, but I am not sure how we will put down that hollywood vibe without an arranger and only two people. So my instinct was to go piano + banjo like. Is the clarinet (the first solo instrument you hear at 0:06 and througout) part the arranger or you?

(i have no clue how arrangers work)
All is part of the arranger. I am only playing the accordion sounds, melody and fills.

Arrangers, like bk-7m work similar. Checkout some YouTube demos on the Yamaha Genos, Korg Fr3x/fr4x and you can get a better concept on what they do. The left hand plays chords for a selected style or beat. In the event you connect a midi accordion, you control the arranger with the accordion left hand chords.
https://youtu.be/NDEVZp5D4Vk
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http://www.larryrobertsent.com

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Re: Good Gigs, Bad Gigs

Post by Keymn » Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:49 am

jozz wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:25 am
We took some inspiration from your list, but I am not sure how we will put down that hollywood vibe without an arranger and only two people. So my instinct was to go piano + banjo like. Is the clarinet (the first solo instrument you hear at 0:06 and througout) part the arranger or you?

(i have no clue how arrangers work)
All is part of the arranger. I am only playing the accordion sounds, melody and fills.

Arrangers, like bk-7m work similar. Checkout some YouTube demos on the Yamaha Genos, Korg Fr3x/fr4x and you can get a better concept on what they do. The left hand plays chords for a selected style or beat. In the event you connect a midi accordion, you control the arranger with the accordion left hand chords.
https://youtu.be/NDEVZp5D4Vk
Larry Roberts Entertainment
http://www.larryrobertsent.com

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Re: Good Gigs, Bad Gigs

Post by jozz » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:28 am

Keymn wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:48 am
All is part of the arranger. I am only playing the accordion sounds, melody and fills.
I see otherwise my next question was do you have 5 hands? :mrgreen:

Can the arranger improvise these counter melodies or is that fixed into the style?

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Re: Good Gigs, Bad Gigs

Post by JerryPH » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:52 am

jozz wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:28 am
Can the arranger improvise these counter melodies or is that fixed into the style?
They're not improvised, they are fixed countermelodies that repeat over and over, but one can insert "breaks" via button or foot pedal presses, as the video Larry showed.
My musical memoires blog/website: http://www.AccordionMemories.com

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Re: Good Gigs, Bad Gigs

Post by Geronimo » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:47 am

jozz wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:28 am
Keymn wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:48 am
All is part of the arranger. I am only playing the accordion sounds, melody and fills.
I see otherwise my next question was do you have 5 hands? :mrgreen:

Can the arranger improvise these counter melodies or is that fixed into the style?
On the MS40, I think you usually have about 4 bars of material fixed into the pattern (with instruments "Bass", "Chord1", "Chord2", "Chord3" which are mapped to pattern-dependent instruments) but they are matched to the chord you currently play. I haven't delved into the details of how this works though but it actually does a pretty good job. A style (which has a common speed and time signature) usually has 4 patterns, with each pattern having two intros, two endings, and 2 intermissions. One of the endings is supposed to stay in key (so that you can change the key using chord buttons yourself), the other is allowed to do something else. That sounds like a lot of rigidness but one can actually do a lot using predefined generic styles and styles someone else created before reverting to programming of one's own.

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Re: Good Gigs, Bad Gigs

Post by jozz » Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:44 am

Ok cool, well we dug up a very old yammie PSR-740 that should in theory be able to do something like that. I am going to check it out.

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Re: Good Gigs, Bad Gigs

Post by lightninboy » Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:55 pm

The ‘Cordeen and Me: Episode 4 – Accordion Lust!

[4] You can get a MIDI (Musical Instrument Digital Interface) accordion that can make your ‘cordeen sound like a Themerin or harpsichord or whatever if you want to. I don’t want to. Roland is the pre-eminent manufacturer of these platypuses. I just think an accordion should sound like a damn accordion.

https://accordionweb.com/2017/04/24/the ... dion-lust/


How popular are digital accordions?

by goldtopia
They are much diferent to accoustic accordions with an impressive range of orchestral sounds and set ups that you can't get on accoustic accordions. Some say they are not real accordions and don't sound natural but this I think Roland is working on in trying to create the kind of sound and musical expression you get on accoustic accordions. A big bonus is you can play it silently with headphones. There are also differences in the various models. It would require some study to see what model suits you (if at all) as there are now so many models to choose from.

by maugein96
I hate to say it, but their popularity may eventually lead to the further demise of the acoustic accordion.

by Anyanka
There are plenty of accordion aficionados who detest them, too. While I accept all the arguments in favour of digitals, I would never want to play one and don't enjoy listening to them either. Most folk players wouldn't go near them :)

https://accordionists.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1674


Would I use a Roland if I could get one at a bargain price? Probably. But I have more fun listening to acoustic accordions because they're old school. One thing that would make a Roland more desirable is if you could get it to sound exactly like a chemnitzer.

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Re: Good Gigs, Bad Gigs

Post by Geronimo » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:55 pm

lightninboy wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:55 pm
The ‘Cordeen and Me: Episode 4 – Accordion Lust!

[4] You can get a MIDI (Musical Instrument Digital Interface) accordion that can make your ‘cordeen sound like a Themerin or harpsichord or whatever if you want to. I don’t want to. Roland is the pre-eminent manufacturer of these platypuses. I just think an accordion should sound like a damn accordion.
[...]
Would I use a Roland if I could get one at a bargain price? Probably. But I have more fun listening to acoustic accordions because they're old school. One thing that would make a Roland more desirable is if you could get it to sound exactly like a chemnitzer.
I have a first generation Roland FR-1b since I wanted something light able to do free bass note entry (I have a fat Excelsior with MIDI, without either bellows dynamics or keyboard velocity and just doing standard bass, weighing about double of the Roland).

Roland does focus on making their accordions "sound like a damn accordion": by far the majority of provided sounds are different accordions.

At least for this smallest first generation model, I am not overly enamored with the accordion sounds and most particularly with how they work in connection with bellows pressure. When using other expanders (Solton MS-40 or the Aeolus organ emulator), I tend to switch off bellows pressure sense completely anyway. The orchestral sounds are a bit too few, but at least on the bass side they make the result quite more transparent and fun than working with only accordion sounds. Of course assuming a good instrument amp (the FR-1b has no built-in speakers). A cheap Chinese soundbar works nicely for practising at any time in the night at constant low volume (don't use a keyboard amp with good projection of the full range for that).

Frankly, the orchestral sounds of the Roland have taught me a few things about articulation and orchestration I could utilize on my main acoustic instrument: you can do a lot of articulatory tricks with partially pressed buttons that help with getting identifiable separate voices out of a common bellows after all. That does not work on a Roland (but then you can just use orchestral patches there and get much more distinguishable results without having to do anything) but as limited as a "reeds only" instrument is, realigning your listening habits with something quite more robust can be inspiring.

As an accordion substitute, I am not convinced (but then I have the simplest model), but once you start recording, not having to bother with microphones is a definite advantage. And if you are just one band member instead of main soloist, the advantages might well offset the drawbacks.

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Re: Good Gigs, Bad Gigs

Post by Keymn » Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:05 am

jozz wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:44 am
Ok cool, well we dug up a very old yammie PSR-740 that should in theory be able to do something like that. I am going to check it out.
The Yamaha PSR series are awesome keyboard arrangers. I played PSR 410 years ago on many gigs. Even this older version sounded decent. Your psr740 show have decent styles. Go for it! Do You have midi on your accordion? If you need help with this, I can point out settings in the manual to control the style chord variations with your left hand chords. Only If your accordion has this capability or do you have a VAccordion?
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Re: Good Gigs, Bad Gigs

Post by jozz » Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:35 am

No I have only acoustic accordions, so I'm not sure if this is going to work at all but I figured I might use a MIDI pedalboard to control style functions and just program a song/chord sequence into it.

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Re: Good Gigs, Bad Gigs

Post by Geronimo » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:00 am

jozz wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:35 am
No I have only acoustic accordions, so I'm not sure if this is going to work at all but I figured I might use a MIDI pedalboard to control style functions and just program a song/chord sequence into it.
If you don't have MIDI input in any manner to the arranger, it will not be able to guess the current harmony. You can still use it as a drum computer but then the relation of what it delivers and of the amount of control you are giving up in return is worse than when having the full-scale arranger deal. On the plus side, you don't need to practise delivering the information it wants (you need to change slightly before the beat so that it can accommodate, and you are better off much of the time just holding bass and chord than playing anything yourself, and mixtures are possible but even more tricky).

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Re: Good Gigs, Bad Gigs

Post by jozz » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:08 am

What I think I want is that the PSR can just play a pre-programmed chord sequence in a chosen style, and have some foot switches to make it do a fill on command. And then I play along just acoustically. Without touching the keyboard of the PSR itself.

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Re: Good Gigs, Bad Gigs

Post by jozz » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:12 am

I should add this will be only a gimmick, most of the time the PSR will act as stage piano.

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