English or Italian?

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wirralaccordion
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English or Italian?

Post by wirralaccordion » Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:52 pm

I find that a lot of tunes have two or more titles so my question is which came first?

For example ( and there are many many more )
Italian = Vieni sul mar
English = Two lovely black eyes

N.B Of course there are many adverts on TV that use well known themes but I am not talking about these!

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JerryPH
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Re: English or Italian?

Post by JerryPH » Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:00 pm

wirralaccordion wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:52 pm
I find that a lot of tunes have two or more titles so my question is which came first?

For example ( and there are many many more )
Italian = Vieni sul mar
English = Two lovely black eyes
The question could also be phrased "which title should you use, the one in the original language, or the most commonly known one?"

I say use the one that YOU as the musician knows for your needs, but if you are a performer, be aware of the other names it is known by just in case someone asks you. For example, I doubt many here would know the song "Skoda Lasky"... but everyone knows "Beer Barrel Polka", same with "Ochi Czerny" otherwise known as "Dark Eyes", right?

Sometimes, something even gets lost in the translation. The fairly popular Czech song "Cervena Sukynka" translates out to "Red Skirt", but everyone knows it as the "Blue Skirt" Waltz... lol

There is no right or wrong answer, but knowledge is king, I would have to say. :)
My musical memoires blog/website: http://www.AccordionMemories.com

maugein96
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Re: English or Italian?

Post by maugein96 » Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:40 pm

wirralaccordion wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:52 pm
I find that a lot of tunes have two or more titles so my question is which came first?

For example ( and there are many many more )
Italian = Vieni sul mar
English = Two lovely black eyes

N.B Of course there are many adverts on TV that use well known themes but I am not talking about these!
Phil,

As Jerry says it is probably best just to use the language you are familiar with.

A while ago somebody posted a clip on the "I did that" section with the title "Happy Hours Polka", which was described as a "Scottish" tune.

The playing was excellent, and the tune was played in the typically slow Scottish polka style. I quite liked the tune but got the feeling I'd heard it before. So out came the French music books, and all was revealed.

The version of the tune I'm familiar with is called "Plaisance-Fox" and was written by the pianist Jean Peyronnin, on behalf of his accordionist friend, Emile Vacher, who was not musically literate. You'll find a lot of their "joint" compositions in the French musette genre.

Now, I don't know whether Vacher "stole" the tune from a Scottish or Irish player (both countries appear to claim it as their own), and simply renamed it. However Vacher and Peronnin's publisher, Paul Beuscher, copyrighted the tune in 1953, and it has remained so to this day. Any sheet music for it under "Happy Hours Polka" that I've seen claims that it is "traditional", and it is sometimes written in different keys.

As far as I'm concerned both tunes are identical, but Plaisance-Fox is played at a much faster tempo, in keeping with French musette polkas.

I'd be interested to know whether anybody has seen copyright for Happy Hours Polka. The tune could well pre-date 1953, but Beuscher never copyrighted a lot of older material until that year.

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Re: English or Italian?

Post by TomBR » Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:18 pm

maugein96 wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:40 pm
...... However Vacher and Peronnin's publisher, Paul Beuscher, copyrighted the tune in 1953, and it has remained so to this day.
......
I'd be interested to know whether anybody has seen copyright for Happy Hours Polka. The tune could well pre-date 1953, but Beuscher never copyrighted a lot of older material until that year.
As I understand it, you can and you can't "copyright" something under UK law.
If you publish or create something then copyright is inherent in the parts of the creation that are yours, whether you like it or not. (Whether or not you defend your copyright.)

If you publish music by J S Bach, that is long out of copyright, then your page layout is copyright, but just about nothing else.
If you publish your edition of that music with phrase marks and fingering, those parts are your copyright, but nothing else.

If you arrange a traditional tune, your arrangement is copyright, but not the tune.

The little (c) symbol and a date has legal significance elsewhere, but no effect in UK law.

maugein96
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Re: English or Italian?

Post by maugein96 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:57 pm

TomBR wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:18 pm
maugein96 wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:40 pm
...... However Vacher and Peronnin's publisher, Paul Beuscher, copyrighted the tune in 1953, and it has remained so to this day.
......
I'd be interested to know whether anybody has seen copyright for Happy Hours Polka. The tune could well pre-date 1953, but Beuscher never copyrighted a lot of older material until that year.
As I understand it, you can and you can't "copyright" something under UK law.
If you publish or create something then copyright is inherent in the parts of the creation that are yours, whether you like it or not. (Whether or not you defend your copyright.)

If you publish music by J S Bach, that is long out of copyright, then your page layout is copyright, but just about nothing else.
If you publish your edition of that music with phrase marks and fingering, those parts are your copyright, but nothing else.

If you arrange a traditional tune, your arrangement is copyright, but not the tune.

The little (c) symbol and a date has legal significance elsewhere, but no effect in UK law.
Thanks Tom,

I think I get it, and I'm not even going to try and work out what the situation is in France.

I've been on foreign websites where they claim that their web pages are copyright and ban any browsers from copying or downloading anything from the web page concerned.

Happy Hours Polka it is then, regardless!

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