Help with specific fingering B-griff CBA

To discuss / ask questions about learning methods/styles/teachers/techniques etc.
Post Reply
Mityr
Novice
Novice
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:40 pm

Help with specific fingering B-griff CBA

Post by Mityr » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:38 pm

Hello,
I'm working through an arrangement of Czardas by Monti right now, and I'm at a blank at how to play this small segment of the song. Any b-griff players can spare the time to write out the fingering and maybe explain the reasoning for using it?
Thank you a lot!
Image
Happy owner of a cba-b Ellegaard Special with cba-c freebass
Longingly learning

Mityr
Novice
Novice
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:40 pm

Re: Help with specific fingering B-griff CBA

Post by Mityr » Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:31 pm

I'm not trying to overtake the Teaching and Learning section of the subreddit, but I stumpled across another problem. My teacher plays PA and has a very limited knowledge on button accordions - b-griffs are also really uncommon in Denmark - and I only have you guys for these kinds of questions (I couldn't find the answer anywhere else on the forum)

The song is Ashokan Farewell. I used to play it on my PA, and this section was easily enough done, because you would just cross your thumb under the F# and then continue towards the F# an octave higher. But I'm not entirely sure if it should be done this way on the CBA (b-griff). Anyone care to write out fingering and explain it?
Image

Again, thank you.
Mityr
Happy owner of a cba-b Ellegaard Special with cba-c freebass
Longingly learning

User avatar
JerryPH
Should get out more!
Should get out more!
Posts: 1929
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:59 am
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada

Re: Help with specific fingering B-griff CBA

Post by JerryPH » Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:11 pm

I do not play CBA, don't even pretend to (being a pure PA kinda guy), but at *some* point there has to be a finger passing under one way or another, even if it is the 2nd finger making the pass under... but don't forget, it is not sacrilege to use the thumb on a CBA. ;)

Good luck, I hope someone answers your post soon. :)
My musical memoires blog/website: http://www.AccordionMemories.com

Mityr
Novice
Novice
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:40 pm

Re: Help with specific fingering B-griff CBA

Post by Mityr » Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:58 pm

JerryPH wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:11 pm
I do not play CBA, don't even pretend to (being a pure PA kinda guy), but at *some* point there has to be a finger passing under one way or another, even if it is the 2nd finger making the pass under... but don't forget, it is not sacrilege to use the thumb on a CBA. ;)

Good luck, I hope someone answers your post soon. :)
I figured thumb was key on the Ashokan Farewell sequence. I made it work, not as smooth as PA, but it works. Still stumped on how Czardas should be done
It's kind of tough to decide what is too much thumb - the thumbs up for cba topic was a good read. It's fascinating that some bayan players can play rapidly and wide sequences without the use of the thumb. I haven't figured out how yet.

Thank you Jerry. You do play some CBA in my mind: the freebass is a thumbless chromatic keyboard ;)
Can i ask you an off-topic question, which has been wandering my mind - how many years did you play before applying to the conservatory?

Cheers
Happy owner of a cba-b Ellegaard Special with cba-c freebass
Longingly learning

User avatar
JerryPH
Should get out more!
Should get out more!
Posts: 1929
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:59 am
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada

Re: Help with specific fingering B-griff CBA

Post by JerryPH » Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:20 pm

Mityr wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:58 pm
Thank you Jerry. You do play some CBA in my mind: the freebass is a thumbless chromatic keyboard ;)
Can i ask you an off-topic question, which has been wandering my mind - how many years did you play before applying to the conservatory?
lol... you kind of figured out my secret, I was mentally going through that sequence on my left hand! Of course, there is no thumb available for me. I know of that sequence that you showed, and on a PA, it definitely needs the thumb under.

Concerning your question... let me see... I started at 4, and started the conservatory at age 15, so 11 years, but my reasons for going to the conservatory were not that I had earned some right to go or that I was or wasn't good enough.

My music teacher told me that I had gone as far as I could with him and if I wanted to advance further, it was not going to be with him. Honestly, it was admirable that he got me as far as I got with the Free Bass. considering he was a straight Stradella teacher. His name was Marcel Proulx and his teacher was Carmine Carroza (who was himself was a student of Pietro Diero!), though at the time, those names meant nothing to me... lol Know what? I never put all 3 names together until just now while thinking about it! :D

I kind of remember my dad telling me that he had found that there were only 2 places in Canada that taught Free Bass back then, Toronto and some place out west, like Edmonton or something, I don't remember. So... Toronto it was!
My musical memoires blog/website: http://www.AccordionMemories.com

maugein96
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 853
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:56 pm
Location: Scottish Borders

Re: Help with specific fingering B-griff CBA

Post by maugein96 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:27 am

Hi,

I'm a C system CBA player who has never played B system, but the general principles of playing both systems are the same.

I've never taught any musical instrument and do not profess to know any "right" or "wrong" way to play, but your little puzzle intrigued me.

I don't know how far you are with your studies, although from the time I've been on the forum it is my understanding that most people who wish to play classical music on an accordion of any type seem to be obsessed with playing everything to a fairly rigid "standard", especially with regard to the fingering. However, I can tell you that as far as I know nobody has ever devised an entirely foolproof fingering system for any type of CBA. I have seen about a dozen different method books for C system CBA and no two of them are exactly the same. Some of those methods may work better than others depending on the style of music being played, but the truth is that as you gain experience you'll end up working out little "tricks" and "cheats" that aren't in the books.

OK, so on to the "problem". I'll reiterate that I have no idea whatsoever what would constitute the "proper" fingering for the piece you are having problems with, and although I have heard of the tune concerned, I've never tried to play it.

If we work on the principle that there are no right hand chords shown, and we'll try to keep things simple on the outer three rows only, then it is fairly simple.

I have worked out the fingering I would use for B system for the music you have given:-

2,4,3,4,2,3 -4,3,2,1 - 2,4,2 - 3,2,3

There are also possibilities in the 4th row, but I'm not familiar enough with B system to go into that in any detail. Similarly, there is also scope to avoid use of the thumb and use the little finger, but I tried to show the easiest option.

What you'll find with CBA is that there is a lot of scope for passing different fingers under or over each other as the case may be. You sometimes need to use different fingers on the same button whilst your hand is in the same basic position on the keyboard, and that will come with experience. The scales and some other basic techniques are all written down in the tuition books and are invaluable for beginners, but most of us end up working fingering patterns out for ourselves.

User avatar
JerryPH
Should get out more!
Should get out more!
Posts: 1929
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:59 am
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada

Re: Help with specific fingering B-griff CBA

Post by JerryPH » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:54 am

maugein96 wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:27 am
...though from the time I've been on the forum it is my understanding that most people who wish to play classical music on an accordion of any type seem to be obsessed with playing everything to a fairly rigid "standard", especially with regard to the fingering.
I think "obsessed" is not the right word. It's more along the lines of "finding the most effective/efficient". You will have noticed that the "better" players out there all emphasize economy of movement even when doing the most complex runs along the keyboard.

The big thing about people that get to a certain point is that people that are self-taught have a much higher level of possibility of doing silly things like playing with 3 out of 5 fingers, not playing the bass at all and of course, the easiest, improper bellows control.

I am sure there are people who are obsessed about things, indeed I would classify myself as having been one of those people I the past, however, you won't find many of those people here, because they are too busy working on their technique... lol
maugein96 wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:27 am
However, I can tell you that as far as I know nobody has ever devised an entirely foolproof fingering system for any type of CBA. I have seen about a dozen different method books for C system CBA and no two of them are exactly the same. Some of those methods may work better than others depending on the style of music being played, but the truth is that as you gain experience you'll end up working out little "tricks" and "cheats" that aren't in the books.

OK, so on to the "problem". I'll reiterate that I have no idea whatsoever what would constitute the "proper" fingering for the piece you are having problems with, and although I have heard of the tune concerned, I've never tried to play it.


Generally speaking, when it comes to fingering, no matter what accordion, the basic rules are:

1. Don't be afraid to use all available fingers.
2. No matter what the run is, if your hand or fingers are in the wrong position to play the next note, your fingering is incorrect.
3. It is much more effective to pass under than pass over (CBA is the big exception to that rule, of course, like when doing a chromatic scale upwards)
4. Economy of movement. Your elbow is not all over the place, your wrist is not twisted into painful angles and the fingers just fly making it look easy.

The superior design of a CBA is also it's tiny hindrance, in that because of multiple same notes in a small area, one has at least two ways of playing any run and it is not only a question of fingering, but also of row choice. Not a big issue once one figures out what works best for each person.

The rest... all up to the person doing the playing. :)
My musical memoires blog/website: http://www.AccordionMemories.com

maugein96
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 853
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:56 pm
Location: Scottish Borders

Re: Help with specific fingering B-griff CBA

Post by maugein96 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:32 pm

Mityr,

I'd probably better say that, like you, I was unable to find any suitable teacher for my chosen instrument, as I had opted to go "foreign" with my choice of music, much in the same manner as you have opted to play an instrument which is "foreign" to the normal Danish mainstream. I know there are quite a few C system CBAs in Denmark, as I've seen them in the music stores, mainly in the south of the country, and even although you don't play C system, you might be able to learn a lot by watching and/or associating with C system players?

I worked along with various tutor books for many years but for the style of music I played I eventually reached the stage where there was nobody around to tell me what was the best fingering for anything other than the scales in the books. Consequently, I never really made it into the limelight, but I nevertheless spent an awful lot of time studying fingering possibilities on C system, in the days when I was young and keen. I had promised myself that I was going to make every effort to manage without a tutor and do everything "by the book". However, twelve or thirteen books later I was still stuck in a rut, and couldn't work out whose book was best for me. I therefore ended up taking a lot of shortcuts as my patience and enthusiasm waned, and I have been stuck in the same rut of ignorant incompetence for 30 odd years. Don't let that put you off, as we are all different, and there is no reason why you shouldn't come on in leaps in bounds. At least your teacher will be able to tell you about the left hand and what your playing sounds like!

Please disregard any comments I made about classical players being "obsessed" with doing things properly, as that is just my take on the instrument in general. Perhaps I didn't take the learning process seriously enough, but it seems you have the same obstacles to climb as I had.

Try the fingering I've suggested and see if it works for you. If it doesn't it might give you one or two other ideas.

Good luck with your studies.

John W

EDIT:- There are a few Norwegian method books which cover the B griff accordion, although as far as I can remember they also cover PA (i.e. they are not exclusively for CBA). At least one of them was written as recently as 2006, and you'll get some fingering charts in them. I appreciate you are not an absolute beginner, but the books may be of some use to you. Norwegian is pretty close to Danish as you know (until you hear it spoken!).

Here is a link to a Norwegian store which carries some of the books:-

http://notebutikken.no/trekkspillskolen ... ge-product

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests