Fingering suggestions please

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Decbox
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Fingering suggestions please

Post by Decbox » Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:20 pm

I am learning a piece on the CBA in D Major on the outside three rows with a descending passage which goes ef#e c#ba f#. The second f# is an octave below the first one l.
I seem to keep getting to the a with my thumb using every combination of fingering leading up to it. Then I need to use the thumb again for the f#. I hate using the same finger twice. I know I could play the a in the fourth row and that would solve the problem.
Any ideas anyone????
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maugein96
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Re: Fingering suggestions please

Post by maugein96 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 9:17 am

Hi Dec,

If you try using 2-3-2 for the first triplet then 4-3-2 for the second one that leaves your thumb free to hit the E or F# (unsure of the notation given) at the start of the third triplet.

The old French way would probably have you doing that as 2-3-2, 5-4-3, then 2-3-2 (no thumb). The reality was most players would probably just have "jumped" from one triplet to the other using fingers 2-3-2, 3-2-4, then 2-3-2 only. Finger 4 would have hit the A on the outside row, and that would allow finger 2 to hit the E or F# for the third triplet (depending on what the starting note actually is). I think it is supposed to be F#,F,F#, but originally "translated" it as a chromatic run E,F,F#.

A lot of older French accordion music is actually easier to play without habitual use of the thumb, but modern teaching methods have changed that perception. The introduction of the thumb when playing some older material sometimes creates fingering issues which previously never existed.

EDIT:- Amended the text after Tom BR highlighted a notation issue.
Last edited by maugein96 on Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.

TomBR
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Re: Fingering suggestions please

Post by TomBR » Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:32 pm

Sorry, I don't understand your notation, and it doesn't seem to agree with the notes given as text, so I'm not sure what comes after the lower F#.

For ef#e c#ba F# with the second F# being a lower octave I think I'd use
454 321 then reach across with 2 for the F#

If what comes next demands it one could go
454 342 or even 343 to give lots of continuing options

Or have I misunderstood?
Tom

maugein96
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Re: Fingering suggestions please

Post by maugein96 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:12 pm

TomBR wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:32 pm
Sorry, I don't understand your notation, and it doesn't seem to agree with the notes given as text, so I'm not sure what comes after the lower F#.

For ef#e c#ba F# with the second F# being a lower octave I think I'd use
454 321 then reach across with 2 for the F#

If what comes next demands it one could go
454 342 or even 343 to give lots of continuing options

Or have I misunderstood?
Tom
Hi Tom,

I wasn't sure of the notation either, so I've amended my previous post. Theory and notation have never featured much in my accordion "studies".

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Re: Fingering suggestions please

Post by dunlustin » Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:01 pm

I found:
454, 321, 231, 323
or with just 3 fingers
343, 324, 234, 434 - maybe you wouldn't find the '3' repeat in a book but ...if it works

maugein96
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Re: Fingering suggestions please

Post by maugein96 » Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:57 pm

dunlustin wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:01 pm
I found:
454, 321, 231, 323
or with just 3 fingers
343, 324, 234, 434 - maybe you wouldn't find the '3' repeat in a book but ...if it works
When faced with something unusual it really is just a case of doing whatever is required, regardless of what is perceived as "correct". Most of us will develop our own methods of coping with whatever is written down. Too many people get hooked on a particular method of fingering and are frightened to deviate from that.

Paul Chalier (aka Pablo Caliero) was a pro accordionist and bandoneon player. He wrote method books for both C system CBA and bandoneon.

His philosophy was the more fingers you contemplate using the greater the scope is for error. You have 5 fingers, but the fewer of them that you actually use, the less likelihood there is of getting into difficulty. For most popular music the CBA (in either B or C system) can usually be tackled using fingers 2,3, and 4, with fingers 1 and 5 being called in as required to assist.

Players who "convert" from PA to CBA seem to bring with them an ingrained sense of utilising PA type fingering for both systems, and that's fair enough, but some seem to be obsessed with fingering. This seems to be a legacy from PA tuition, as I've often heard PA players mention that their fingering is "wrong". With CBA we all tend to have personal preferences. The way the instrument is constructed allows us to do that, and the actual fingers used from player to player can vary by quite a bit. The day that somebody tells me there is only one way to play a CBA is the day I'll put my boxes back in their cases, and ask a guitar teacher if it is true that there is only one "correct" way to play the scale of C.

I've never played PA, but over the years I have deduced that some fairly rigid discipline with regard to fingering is probably required to manage the more technically demanding material. With CBA there is scope to find alternative fingering without needing to look for a single "best" option. Try working out what a Serbian is doing with a 6 row B system dugmetara keyboard, and you'll be there for quite a while. The number of fingering options is pretty varied (especially when you see two players together, and they are both using different fingering on different rows to play the same parts of the tune!). Each player is using the fingering that works best for them.

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Re: Fingering suggestions please

Post by Decbox » Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:26 am

maugein96 wrote:
dunlustin wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:01 pm
I found:
454, 321, 231, 323
or with just 3 fingers
343, 324, 234, 434 - maybe you wouldn't find the '3' repeat in a book but ...if it works
When faced with something unusual it really is just a case of doing whatever is required, regardless of what is perceived as "correct". Most of us will develop our own methods of coping with whatever is written down. Too many people get hooked on a particular method of fingering and are frightened to deviate from that.

Paul Chalier (aka Pablo Caliero) was a pro accordionist and bandoneon player. He wrote method books for both C system CBA and bandoneon.

His philosophy was the more fingers you contemplate using the greater the scope is for error. You have 5 fingers, but the fewer of them that you actually use, the less likelihood there is of getting into difficulty. For most popular music the CBA (in either B or C system) can usually be tackled using fingers 2,3, and 4, with fingers 1 and 5 being called in as required to assist.

Players who "convert" from PA to CBA seem to bring with them an ingrained sense of utilising PA type fingering for both systems, and that's fair enough, but some seem to be obsessed with fingering. This seems to be a legacy from PA tuition, as I've often heard PA players mention that their fingering is "wrong". With CBA we all tend to have personal preferences. The way the instrument is constructed allows us to do that, and the actual fingers used from player to player can vary by quite a bit. The day that somebody tells me there is only one way to play a CBA is the day I'll put my boxes back in their cases, and ask a guitar teacher if it is true that there is only one "correct" way to play the scale of C.

I've never played PA, but over the years I have deduced that some fairly rigid discipline with regard to fingering is probably required to manage the more technically demanding material. With CBA there is scope to find alternative fingering without needing to look for a single "best" option. Try working out what a Serbian is doing with a 6 row B system dugmetara keyboard, and you'll be there for quite a while. The number of fingering options is pretty varied (especially when you see two players together, and they are both using different fingering on different rows to play the same parts of the tune!). Each player is using the fingering that works best for them.
Many thanks for all the replies and apologies for my bad notation. Some great and helpful answers here and great almost philosophical discussion about CBA fingering.
Thanks again.
Declan


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