Meditation on FR4x

Your recordings, audio or video - let's have a listen!
Geronimo
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 865
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:00 am
Location: Germany

Re: Meditation on FR4x

Post by Geronimo » Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:54 am

Glenn wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:24 am
Hi Jerry,
I see you are using a Mackie with FireWire interface. How do you use this these days when FireWire is a thing of the past and no laptops support it? I ask as I was offered a FireWire mixer the other month and I couldn’t see how to shoehorn it into my preferred setup.
Well, the problem with the Mackie Firewire devices is more an end of driver support I think if you take a look at the driver matrix on the Mackie home page. I cannot vouch for Jerry (whose software choices make clear that his solution is a different one), my own solution involves using Linux where stuff that works with free drivers tends to keep doing so indefinitely. There is sort-of a caveat for really old Firewire devices since around 2008 or so the whole Firewire stack got rewritten which mostly affects some old Firewire interfaces, like Cardbus ones.

My own computing hardware tends to run a few years behind. I've recently upgraded from a Thinkpad T61 (4-pin Firewire in front) to a Thinkpad T420 which had a modem output in back: useless for me. Instead of a modem output, there is a rarely used Firewire option board I got for about $7 from China (having to add a piece of celluloid to close the resulting gap), so I am back to built-in Firewire. In the meantime, I'd substituted an Expresscard Firewire interface: the T420 has an expresscard slot.

With regard to spanking new hardware, I have heard that a Thunderbolt-to-Firewire interface available for about $30 for Apple computers works fine with other laptops having Thunderbolt (like some recent Thinkpads) even under Linux. I'd expect this to be similar with other operating systems as long as the end device remains supported.

The dying driver and interface support (sometimes but not necessarily also implying dying drivers) that does not really affect me all that much as Linux user means that the used audio device market has a pretty good value to price ratio since Firewire devices of that vintage were in the expensive part of the spectrum and often employed when the data rates of USB1.1 (!) did not support more than 2 channels.

But the DAW choice is of course limited for me: basically Ardour is the tool of choice.

Geronimo
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 865
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:00 am
Location: Germany

Re: Meditation on FR4x

Post by Geronimo » Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:48 am

Keymn wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:03 am
The reason I got the 4 channel interface is to do demos without overdub. I just play in real time, fix the mistakes then mix...I do not want to give the client a sound bigger then I truly am.
"do not want to give the client a sound bigger than I truly am" and "fix the mistakes then mix" seem a bit contradictory...

I mentioned previously the possibility to record something like the FR4X via Midi, then make an extra pass using the FR4X as Midi expander for getting the accordion audio. If you remember that, you likely also remember the Aufnahme von Gesang und V-Akkordeon in 2 Takes mit Ardour demo I mentioned before: oops, in German.

With a nice multichannel interface you can play it safely and record both audio and Midi in case working with the Midi is not satisfactory (for replay use, you'll likely have to find more "talkative" settings with regard to register changes and things than for use with an arranger: if your play involves an arranger as well, this could turn out to be a problem requiring realtime Midi processing/filtering).

The advantage of this two-prong approach is that "fix the mistakes" is much much more easier to do in Midi than in audio. If you figure out a workflow allowing you to use and/or rerecord the arranger as well.
Last edited by Geronimo on Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Glenn
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 2544
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:31 pm
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Meditation on FR4x

Post by Glenn » Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:53 am

Keymn wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:41 am
I have a Yamaha MG12XU. Unless someone knows different, it is only one channel USB interface no different from your steinberg. I tried the USB on this and it made noise. Probably something I adjust or connections. But do not want to deal with it at this time. Not sure about Behringer?
Indeed you are right, my "cut and paste" skills leave a lot to be desired and I picked from the wrong list. :(
The mixers I am toying with are:
Soundcraft Signature 12MTK (https://www.bax-shop.nl/analoog-mengpan ... informatie)
Behringer Xenyx UFX1204 (https://www.bax-shop.nl/analoog-mengpan ... udio-mixer)
1) Ballone Burini 46C (4+5) cassotto (LMMH) 3/3 PA; 2) Accordiola Piano V (5+5) cassotto (LMMMH) 3/3 PA;
3) Roland FR8X; 4) Hohner Vox 4k (LMMH) 3/3 CBA

Keymn
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 537
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:04 pm
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
Contact:

Re: Meditation on FR4x

Post by Keymn » Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:20 pm

Geronimo wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:48 am
Keymn wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:03 am
The reason I got the 4 channel interface is to do demos without overdub. I just play in real time, fix the mistakes then mix...I do not want to give the client a sound bigger then I truly am.
"do not want to give the client a sound bigger than I truly am" and "fix the mistakes then mix" seem a bit contradictory...

I mentioned previously the possibility to record something like the FR4X via Midi, then make an extra pass using the FR4X as Midi expander for getting the accordion audio. If you remember that, you likely also remember the Aufnahme von Gesang und V-Akkordeon in 2 Takes mit Ardour demo I mentioned before: oops, in German.

With a nice multichannel interface you can play it safely and record both audio and Midi in case working with the Midi is not satisfactory (for replay use, you'll likely have to find more "talkative" settings with regard to register changes and things than for use with an arranger: if your play involves an arranger as well, this could turn out to be a problem requiring realtime Midi processing/filtering).

The advantage of this two-prong approach is that "fix the mistakes" is much much more easier to do in Midi than in audio. If you figure out a workflow allowing you to use and/or rerecord the arranger as well.
Yes I agree on recording MIDI. If you make a mistake, drag and drop the note to the correct position. For me, I have a template that both records MIDI and Audio. Something I would use for a full song recording. For now, I am into marketing my music to get gigs. Those lengthy recordings and You tube Videos are not what a future client wants to see. They just want a general idea of your sound. Web page, average 15 -30 seconds attention spen, then they go to next site.
Larry Roberts Entertainment
http://www.larryrobertsent.com

Keymn
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 537
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:04 pm
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
Contact:

Re: Meditation on FR4x

Post by Keymn » Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:29 pm

Glenn wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:53 am
Keymn wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:41 am
I have a Yamaha MG12XU. Unless someone knows different, it is only one channel USB interface no different from your steinberg. I tried the USB on this and it made noise. Probably something I adjust or connections. But do not want to deal with it at this time. Not sure about Behringer?
Indeed you are right, my "cut and paste" skills leave a lot to be desired and I picked from the wrong list. :(
The mixers I am toying with are:
Soundcraft Signature 12MTK (https://www.bax-shop.nl/analoog-mengpan ... informatie)
Behringer Xenyx UFX1204 (https://www.bax-shop.nl/analoog-mengpan ... udio-mixer)
This Soundcraft too is similar. 4 channel USB. Very inexpensive...
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail ... lYQAvD_BwE
Larry Roberts Entertainment
http://www.larryrobertsent.com

User avatar
JerryPH
Should get out more!
Should get out more!
Posts: 2368
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:59 am
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada

Re: Meditation on FR4x

Post by JerryPH » Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:42 am

Glenn wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:24 am
I see you are using a Mackie with FireWire interface. How do you use this these days when FireWire is a thing of the past and no laptops support it? I ask as I was offered a FireWire mixer the other month and I couldn’t see how to shoehorn it into my preferred setup.
I answered via PM as I did not want to take Larry's thread off topic. :)
My musical memoires blog/website: http://www.AccordionMemories.com

Keymn
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 537
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:04 pm
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
Contact:

Re: Meditation on FR4x

Post by Keymn » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:08 am

It appears we need to simplify and dig in our pockets. Spend the $900+ and get the QSC Touchmix or similar. Forget the PC. Record on external hard drive, do the mix on the QSC and recorded it to a stereo Channel on you favorite DAW. Something I am seriously thinking about? Unless you want to record midi with audio, then go with PC and fancy I/O and cables (that will probably out of date next year).
Larry Roberts Entertainment
http://www.larryrobertsent.com

User avatar
JerryPH
Should get out more!
Should get out more!
Posts: 2368
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:59 am
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada

Re: Meditation on FR4x

Post by JerryPH » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:09 am

Keymn wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:08 am
It appears we need to simplify and dig in our pockets. Spend the $900+ and get the QSC Touchmix or similar...
... Or you could spend $35 for a MIDI interface and use it along with the laptop? This is yet another aspect of recording that I have not touched, but I do have this interface, it does work, but I have as of yet not donemore than test it. So many other projects to do that I don't feel the need to start in this area just yet... but for the price, I got it... just in case one day I want to.
My musical memoires blog/website: http://www.AccordionMemories.com

Keymn
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 537
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:04 pm
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
Contact:

Re: Meditation on FR4x

Post by Keymn » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:13 pm

JerryPH wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:09 am
Keymn wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:08 am
It appears we need to simplify and dig in our pockets. Spend the $900+ and get the QSC Touchmix or similar...
... Or you could spend $35 for a MIDI interface and use it along with the laptop? This is yet another aspect of recording that I have not touched, but I do have this interface, it does work, but I have as of yet not donemore than test it. So many other projects to do that I don't feel the need to start in this area just yet... but for the price, I got it... just in case one day I want to.
I am focusing more on simplifying things. Remember those 4 track Tascam tape recorders? Plug in your instruments and record. When it comes to MIDI interfaces, PC, drivers....etc. most of of do not have the time to grasp this. For recording, many of us just want to lay down a track or 2 for our friends and family to enjoy.
I spent countless hours, on learning digital recording skills then actually becoming a better musician. Which is more satisfying?
I think the latter...
Larry Roberts Entertainment
http://www.larryrobertsent.com

User avatar
jozz
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 624
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:03 am
Location: Hilvarenbeek, The Netherlands

Re: Meditation on FR4x

Post by jozz » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:52 pm

Keymn wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:08 am
It appears we need to simplify and dig in our pockets. Spend the $900+ and get the QSC Touchmix or similar. Forget the PC. Record on external hard drive, do the mix on the QSC and recorded it to a stereo Channel on you favorite DAW. Something I am seriously thinking about? Unless you want to record midi with audio, then go with PC and fancy I/O and cables (that will probably out of date next year).
I don't see why the touchmix will simplify things?

that is an extra step (if you're going into your DAW later)

most usb powered audio interfaces can be recorded to multi tracks straight into your DAW

the laptop (with your DAW running) and the interface are smaller and coupled with only one cable

only requirement is an interface with enough inputs for your multi recording

or maybe I am misunderstanding this

User avatar
jozz
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 624
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:03 am
Location: Hilvarenbeek, The Netherlands

Re: Meditation on FR4x

Post by jozz » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:54 pm

on the road the portable recorders (tascam, zoom) can multitrack as well with batteries no power cord, most have a couple XLR/combi TRS inputs which you can split later into mono tracks so with 2 inputs you have 4 tracks

then later mix on your laptop (again no touchmix needed)

Keymn
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 537
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:04 pm
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
Contact:

Re: Meditation on FR4x

Post by Keymn » Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:50 am

My point is, if you are going to invest in a mixer, go with Touchmix or similar. It covers everything you need in one compact package. Mixer and recorder. Just plug in your instruments.
I would think this is the wave of the future and prices are bound to go down.
Larry Roberts Entertainment
http://www.larryrobertsent.com

User avatar
JerryPH
Should get out more!
Should get out more!
Posts: 2368
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:59 am
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada

Re: Meditation on FR4x

Post by JerryPH » Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:27 am

As I mention in a previous post, it is a great time to be alive... the amount of choice and variations available are there "en force" to accommodate any need and budget. All one has to do is define one's needs and there is a solution out there.
jozz wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:54 pm
on the road the portable recorders (tascam, zoom) can multitrack as well with batteries...
then later mix on your laptop (again no touchmix needed)
Yes, the Zoom captures to multiple files, but I have yet to test one feature of a true multitrack device on my Zoom F4... can they play back 1-2 tracks and record on 2 others? That is the feature of a true multitrack device.

I like Larry's suggestion that if you can afford it and have need of a mixer and an audio interface, something along the lines of a digital mixer is cool. The one thing that I am leery of is touch interfaces. Most fader/slider functionality on a video touch interface jumps up or down as soon as you touch it and if course there is always that latency before it decides that you are sliding up or down. There is always room for improvement I suppose. :)
My musical memoires blog/website: http://www.AccordionMemories.com

Keymn
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 537
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:04 pm
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
Contact:

Re: Meditation on FR4x

Post by Keymn » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:58 am

JerryPH wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:27 am
As I mention in a previous post, it is a great time to be alive... the amount of choice and variations available are there "en force" to accommodate any need and budget. All one has to do is define one's needs and there is a solution out there.
jozz wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:54 pm
on the road the portable recorders (tascam, zoom) can multitrack as well with batteries...
then later mix on your laptop (again no touchmix needed)
Yes, the Zoom captures to multiple files, but I have yet to test one feature of a true multitrack device on my Zoom F4... can they play back 1-2 tracks and record on 2 others? That is the feature of a true multitrack device.

I like Larry's suggestion that if you can afford it and have need of a mixer and an audio interface, something along the lines of a digital mixer is cool. The one thing that I am leery of is touch interfaces. Most fader/slider functionality on a video touch interface jumps up or down as soon as you touch it and if course there is always that latency before it decides that you are sliding up or down. There is always room for improvement I suppose. :)
We can not assume anything. Unless we have someone to try a Touch mixer...all I am for is to minimize wires and interfaces. Put it all in one box...PCs are not the answer. Get the lastest, then after a couple years they start to freeze up, unresponsive, have to reboot...🤬.
I shiver to think a DJ relies on there laptop...a high paying gig, then it dies.
Even our VAccordions. If it doesn’t start up on a gig, a big problem. I guest we must have a backup plan. Get 2 of everything!
Larry Roberts Entertainment
http://www.larryrobertsent.com

User avatar
JerryPH
Should get out more!
Should get out more!
Posts: 2368
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:59 am
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada

Re: Meditation on FR4x

Post by JerryPH » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:05 am

Back when I was doing the pro wedding photographer thing, I did not have 2 of everything, I had *3* of almost everything... lol. The idea being that as a paid pro, you have to be ready for pretty much anything. ;)

Oh, I found a youtube unboxing and review of the Touchmix and I was trying to pay special attention to how the faders moved (or not) on initial finger touch. Though I still am not 100% sure, I could not spot any fader jump on initial touch, which would place it way up there. The more I look at it, the more I learn about it and find it quite impressive!

Still, though we want to put it all in one box, and this is obviously doable, it doesn't come without compromise. For example, one cannot automate volume and effect changes post recording, something simple in a PC based DAW, but then again the question that negates all others... do you need or really want that feature?

If it does all that you need, highly recommended that you get it. I personally was looking in the future to get a small light portable setup that rivals what my full sized setup does today and since I am so comfortable with PC's it is a natural that it possibly be a part of it. :)
My musical memoires blog/website: http://www.AccordionMemories.com

Keymn
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 537
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:04 pm
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
Contact:

Re: Meditation on FR4x

Post by Keymn » Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:07 pm

JerryPH wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:05 am
Back when I was doing the pro wedding photographer thing, I did not have 2 of everything, I had *3* of almost everything... lol. The idea being that as a paid pro, you have to be ready for pretty much anything. ;)

Oh, I found a youtube unboxing and review of the Touchmix and I was trying to pay special attention to how the faders moved (or not) on initial finger touch. Though I still am not 100% sure, I could not spot any fader jump on initial touch, which would place it way up there. The more I look at it, the more I learn about it and find it quite impressive!

Still, though we want to put it all in one box, and this is obviously doable, it doesn't come without compromise. For example, one cannot automate volume and effect changes post recording, something simple in a PC based DAW, but then again the question that negates all others... do you need or really want that feature?

If it does all that you need, highly recommended that you get it. I personally was looking in the future to get a small light portable setup that rivals what my full sized setup does today and since I am so comfortable with PC's it is a natural that it possibly be a part of it. :)
What blows me away is those virtual instruments like in Cakewalk. True Pianos blows away the Roland vaccordion and my Korg in piano sound. This is just software!
Yes, you can tweak to get a decent piano but the True Piano needs no tweaking...
Larry Roberts Entertainment
http://www.larryrobertsent.com

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest